Thanks for this great newsletter. Back where I grew up in Kansas, we had a law about consanguinity... "If a husband divorces a wife, they are still cousins". 😂 We used to say in our family, "There will be no diving in our gene pool -- it is too shallow!"
For what it is worth, I agree completely with your analysis. Eleanor of Aquitaine was nothing if not decisive. Note how she escaped other pursuers to meet and wed Henry (eventually Henry II of England). Also look at how she conducted herself as Henry's wife. She was definitely a formidable woman of action.
I never considered how Louis might feel about this. Not only did he have a political rival in Henry but he must have burned with jealousy about how Eleanor preferred his rival. I guess it gave him something else to tell his confessor and for which to pray for forgiveness.
It is extraordinary personal drama, isn't it... And played out so publicly. 'Decisive' is exactly the right word for Eleanor – or perhaps 'agentic', in ultra-modern vocabulary. And I love your extremely relevant Kansas lore!
Dr. Castor’s essays are always so incisive and thoughtful. The inclusion of the quote from Turner was very interesting— to see that the statements that Louis “came to see” and his “thinking was confirmed” were simply undocumented assertions illustrates the limitations of historical analysis in the long period before female historians became a greater part of the profession, and how valuable it is to now have the benefits of these enhanced viewpoints. Unfortunately, in the U.S., the current attacks on efforts to diversify university faculties is reducing the opportunities for developing different perspectives and interpretations.
This is such an interesting issue – the great David D'Avray is brilliant on the subject. I'm no expert, but they certainly weren't intended to be so by the Church itself. The prohibition on marrying within the seventh degree definitely came to function as a de facto route to annulment-when-convenient for the ruling classes, because the net spread so widely among the noble and royal families of Europe – which is one of the reasons that in 1215 the Church reduced the prohibited degrees to four, and set about fiercer policing, ie so that marriages couldn't be escaped so easily. Still, of course, power was a great help when it came to both dispensation and divorce...
Thanks. How many village marriages before 1215 were effectively between sixth cousins or closer? Did they all require dispensations from bishops, or were rules selectively enforced?
I’m no expert on village societies but I would say rules were selectively enforced at all levels, albeit in different ways and for different reasons – but that these rules (whether seven degrees or four) did provide cultural barriers to marriage between close relatives, even if through the spirit rather than the letter of the law
Another very interesting debate... I suspect Henry's resistance to anything ever being his own fault in any shape or form might still have left them in the firing line. Not assuming women were incapable of ruling would certainly have helped!
Or did Louis really love Eleanor and want her to be happy? Plus, she was probably making Louis very unhappy to the point he was glad to be rid of her. 😄
Hey Helen,
Thanks for this great newsletter. Back where I grew up in Kansas, we had a law about consanguinity... "If a husband divorces a wife, they are still cousins". 😂 We used to say in our family, "There will be no diving in our gene pool -- it is too shallow!"
For what it is worth, I agree completely with your analysis. Eleanor of Aquitaine was nothing if not decisive. Note how she escaped other pursuers to meet and wed Henry (eventually Henry II of England). Also look at how she conducted herself as Henry's wife. She was definitely a formidable woman of action.
I never considered how Louis might feel about this. Not only did he have a political rival in Henry but he must have burned with jealousy about how Eleanor preferred his rival. I guess it gave him something else to tell his confessor and for which to pray for forgiveness.
Thanks again for this newsletter.
It is extraordinary personal drama, isn't it... And played out so publicly. 'Decisive' is exactly the right word for Eleanor – or perhaps 'agentic', in ultra-modern vocabulary. And I love your extremely relevant Kansas lore!
Dr. Castor’s essays are always so incisive and thoughtful. The inclusion of the quote from Turner was very interesting— to see that the statements that Louis “came to see” and his “thinking was confirmed” were simply undocumented assertions illustrates the limitations of historical analysis in the long period before female historians became a greater part of the profession, and how valuable it is to now have the benefits of these enhanced viewpoints. Unfortunately, in the U.S., the current attacks on efforts to diversify university faculties is reducing the opportunities for developing different perspectives and interpretations.
I have always been certain it was Eleanor's idea, and this just confirms it further.
I so wish we could prove it! But I can't see another explanation that makes more sense of what we do know...
This is great research and a fascinating read!
Thank you!
How much of the Church’s degrees of consanguinity rules were a conscious insurance policy in case your wife failed to beget a male heir?
This is such an interesting issue – the great David D'Avray is brilliant on the subject. I'm no expert, but they certainly weren't intended to be so by the Church itself. The prohibition on marrying within the seventh degree definitely came to function as a de facto route to annulment-when-convenient for the ruling classes, because the net spread so widely among the noble and royal families of Europe – which is one of the reasons that in 1215 the Church reduced the prohibited degrees to four, and set about fiercer policing, ie so that marriages couldn't be escaped so easily. Still, of course, power was a great help when it came to both dispensation and divorce...
Thanks. How many village marriages before 1215 were effectively between sixth cousins or closer? Did they all require dispensations from bishops, or were rules selectively enforced?
I’m no expert on village societies but I would say rules were selectively enforced at all levels, albeit in different ways and for different reasons – but that these rules (whether seven degrees or four) did provide cultural barriers to marriage between close relatives, even if through the spirit rather than the letter of the law
How much of history would have changed if we'd always known the sperm was responsible for the sex of the child?
Would Henry VIII knowing more biology have lessened his desire for a son and heir?
No, but a couple of women wouldn't have been beheaded. if he knew it was his own damn fault.
Another very interesting debate... I suspect Henry's resistance to anything ever being his own fault in any shape or form might still have left them in the firing line. Not assuming women were incapable of ruling would certainly have helped!
so interesting
Or did Louis really love Eleanor and want her to be happy? Plus, she was probably making Louis very unhappy to the point he was glad to be rid of her. 😄
Oh to have been a fly on the wall! Louis was certainly willing to endure public embarrassment at her hands to a very striking extent...
I am currently enjoying the chapters on Eleanor in your book "She-Wolves". Revelatory! ❤️
So pleased to hear!